GUN ideas
 

Hi again all,

Just a few questions about weapons. I'm in the market for a rifle anda pistol for the shtf scenario. I'm leaning toward an M1A(14) typ rifle in .308 and /or a M1Garand in 06. Then I thought well, maybe I should get an AR15 type clone in 5.56. I like the idea of the larger caliber and think one should lean towards a combat rifle as far as shooting alot of rounds in a short period of time as most sporting rifles don't handle this as well.

On the pistol side I'm leaning towards an inexpensive used Glock and/or a combo gun like a Barreta 92F in 9mm and .40. A friend has one and its easy to convert back and forth and shoots pretty well. I kind like that idea, one gun, two differeent calibers. I think Sig also makes a combo in 9mm and .357sig. Any other combo guns that anyone knows about?

Ammo won't be a problem as I used to reload for a hobby and plan on reloading as a neccessity, just starting to compile the components. Much cheaper than buying new ammo.

Re: GUN ideas
 

Not to step on too many toes, yet would not THR and AlphaRubicon be preferable to this question?

If it is a shtf situation I would keep it simple if i were you

My choice for reliability, simplicity, and cheapness are winchester 1300 shotty, sks and a cz52 and a Single-Six. my 2 cents

Re: GUN ideas
 

I have a CZ 75 BD. It's a 9mm and right on par with a SIG IMO. It has great ballance and a tight action. I don't think the thing has ever jammed on me. If you've never fired one before, you may want to try one out before you decide. The only thing I didn't like about it was the plastic stock grips. I got a nice wrap around rubber grip for mine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...2/IMG_0687.jpg

Re: GUN ideas
 

I actually looked at the CZ but didn't like the idea of no decocker on that style of pistol. It did feel quite tight and felt nice but I like the decocker safety of the Sig and the Barreta. I'm not a huge fan of the Glock but they are tough, high capacity, and relatively trouble free. Andthe price is right, I've seen used ones 350-400$.

Re: GUN ideas
 

you need to say how much you are willing to practice. what kind of community you live in -- urban or rural, mountains or plains, etc. do you have access to a shooting community that allows you to join shooting clubs and go to competitions to hone skills. do you even have an indoor pistol range nearby, etc.

all those questions are the first ones to ask because they relate to the SINE QUA NON of firearms usage-- skill. if you dont have time to develop skill then that is a thresh-hold question. if not, get a 12 ga slide action shotgun like the mossberg 500 series, learn to use slugs for your "rifle" component, and combine that with a 357 revolver.

IMO, people who arent going to be able to get some decent instruction on a rifle should not mess with them. Rifles are powerful offensive weapons.

Re: GUN ideas
 

I speak on the merits of the ammo. CZ 52(Vz-52) fires a particularly hot loading of the 7.62 x 25 mm TT cartridge developed in Czechoslovakia, designated M48. It is often referred to simply as "The Czech Load". This is an 85 grain (5.5 g) FMJ bullet fired at 1,640 ft/s (500 m/s), 18% faster than the stated velocity of the common Russian load. The Czech load gives both unusually flat trajectory and relatively high penetrative power for a handgun.
In the countries of Soviet Block the body armor is rated for CZ as an additional rating.

If you shoot hot loaded ammo only it will break the cz barrel rather soon. So I keep a box of hot stuff and shoot weaker at the range.

Any hit with a handgun is unpleasant and I would rather have something that would make a strainer out of a door of a truck used for defense.

To me turning cover into concealment is a good thing in a total shtf scenario. That is why I have SKS. (I am in Kommiefornia, so no Ak for me) and home defense it is Winchester 1300.

Re: GUN ideas
 

I'm very firearms competent. Used to shoot competively in skeet and trap. I live in the woods and can shoot almost anytime I want. Was much better with the rifle when I work in AK...we used to shoot twice a week and burn up tons of ammo in the pistols and rifles. I used to hit a golf ball tossed up 3 out of 5 times with an old savage single shot 22 with out a rear sight.

I can teach myself to hit what I'm shooting at with any weapon. Just looking for some ideas on shtf weapons. I'm not into the spray and pray style of defense but realize that large capacity magazines mean less reloading.

Re: GUN ideas
 

I like the combo rifles/shotguns 22lr/20 gauge because they are simple, reliable.
shotgun easy to reload even with emergency loading gear.able to take large
game with solid load able to take small game with 22lr even almost silently if
cb,s are used. to me being able to take small game silently is a bigger asset
than being able to fight a small war especially if I was caught away from
home or bugout loc and needed to travel on foot.


discretion is the better part of valour

is that how the saying goes?

Re: GUN ideas
 

No doubt the 7.62 x 25 is a great gartridge but it is not widely available. I like the 9mm and .40 combo. I don't own a Glock but always heard the barrels last a LONG time. In a SHTF scenario I would imagine the most widely available handgun ammo will be 9mm, .40, .45, .38 special and .22 Personally I own handguns in 4 of these 5 calibers.

For a rifle if $$ isn't an issue I would get something in .308 and also get either an AR15 or an AK47 variant. The AK's are cheap, use cheap ammo and are very reliable. Good to 300 yards.

Re: GUN ideas
 

I like reliability, durability and simplicity for my SHTF guns, in that order. Therefore, my choice of rifle is an AK, and handgun is a Glock. Both are rugged and can take plenty of abuse in harsh conditions. Parts are plentiful and you don't have to be a gunsmith to work on either. That being said, I love the M1's and certainly don't think it, or a high quality AR, is a bad choice either. I honestly don't think you could go wrong with anything you mentioned. If you can, go out and run a little lead through each. Maybe rent some at a range and then go with what feels best...

Re: GUN ideas
 

OK, then for a rifle get the Springfield M1A which is a 308 copy of the m14 in semi. Or, an AR-15 if you prefer a .22 since you are such a good shot with it!

My prefered sidearm's the 1911 but I like the glock too. I usually carry something smaller though, usually PPK clones, either FEG or Makarovs.

Re: GUN ideas
 

Hmmm... checked out that Alpha Rubicon site... gee, they are really self important. Weird.

Bushpilot, if you live in the woods you'll probably want to pass on the 5.56x45. While that cartridge is decent against hard targets it isn't any good at passing through intermediate barriers and staying on course. If you hit much in the way of brush or banches you can't rely on the bullet making contact with the target. 7.62x39 and .308 are both much better about this and will also drill through thick trees. I live in the woods too and the only place I can get 200 yards of LOS is across my own property so the long range ability of the .308 is wasted on me. The 7.62x39 is more weight and price efficient for general use and I have fullhouse .30cal bolt actions in case I need to reach out.

The CZ-75 is available with a decocker. I carry my CZ-75B model, which doesn't have the decocker, in condition 2. It really is no big deal to lower the hammer with your thumb. Keep your thumb on the hammer, squeeze the trigger and let it go after letting the hammer go forward a little and it'll drop safely into half cock. The guns themselves are very reliable, ergonomic and scary accurate. They have a lower bore axis than many/most autoloaders, including Sigs, which make the recoil very manageable so rapid followup shots are a breeze. I like the SP-01, P-01 and 85 Combat versions the best. Glocks are good too, I just hate the ergo's and like steel frames.

If you're worried about blue helmets then you should seriously consider something in 7.62x25 or similar. If you're just worried about casual marauders or such, take your pic of any of the great number of proven calibers.

Re: GUN ideas
 

Anty Ep

I'm not that good but it really is amazing what you can shoot with a "junk" gun with a lot of practice. I didn't write it to impress anybody just to qualify myself.

I too checked out the rubicon sight.....mmmmm is all I can say.

I appreciate all the replies and like to hear other peoples ideas on what works for them. I already own a few weapons and am looking to upgrade the arsenal with a 9mm and a .308/06/7.62x39 rifle. I went out looking and the AR variants in .308 are looking like a good option; something like a DPMS or something similar. I'm torn between the sig and the glock. The glock is cheaper and I would think the reliability would be close to equal but the sig feels sturdier(i know thay are about equal). Then theres the Barreta with two calibers.

I'm also toying with the idea of one of the single shot combo guns where you get a shotgun and a rifle barrel for under $200. You can get 20ga and .22. Would make a great survival gun just like the Savage, only you don't have both available at once.

Thanks for all the replies

Re: GUN ideas
 

http://www.survivalblog.com/2007/02/...mber_adap.html

<h3 class="post-title">Letter Re: Firearm Chamber Adapters</h3>
<h4 class="post-date"></h4>
<p class="post-body">
</p><p>Hi Jim,<br>

I found an article in the latest issue of "<a href="http://www.backwoodsmanmag.com/" target="_blank">The
Backwoodsman</a>" magazine
that talked about using chamber adapters to employ different caliber
ammunition
in single shot, and <a href="http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ehwsportsman/ThoseCombos.html" target="_blank">over-and-under
[rifle/shotgun combination gun]s like the Savage 24V</a>. Here's
the [MCA Sports] web site mentioned in the article that sells the
adapters: <a href="http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm</a><br>
<br>
It seems like a neat idea to have the capability to convert a firearm
to shoot different types of ammo that might be scrounge during a long
term TEOTWAWKI . Do you think there is any merit in investing in chamber
adapters? Or would it be wiser to buy the different caliber firearms
instead? Best, - Ron</p>
<p><strong>JWR Replies: </strong>Many thousands of chamber adapters were
made in the last century by the <a href="http://www.marblesoutdoors.com/" target="_blank">Marbles
company</a>.<strong> </strong>If
I'm not mistaken,
<a href="http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm" target="_blank">MCA Sports</a> in
Alaska now owns the tooling that was originally developed by Harry
Owen, who advertised
for many years in<em> The American Rifleman</em> magazine.
The variety of adapters that MCA Sports produces is amazing.
(<a href="http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm" target="_blank">Don't
miss the web page of the rifle and pistol cartridge adapters that
they make for
shotguns!</a>)</p>

<p>I have been a proponent of using chamber adapters <strong>for
non-tactical use</strong>, in single shots, double guns, and bolt
action long guns, for many years. They are indeed a practical way
to use scrounged
ammunition for
target practice, pest shooting, or small game hunting. One advantage
is that they are generally quieter than shooting full power rifle
cartridges. Here at the <a href="http://www.survivalblog.com/glossary.html#Rawles%20Ranch" target="_blank">Rawles
Ranch</a>, we have four Harry Owen chamber
adapters
that I bought more than 20 years ago:</p>
<p>.30 Carbine adapter for .308 Winchester<br>
.30 Carbine adapter for .30-06<br>
.32 ACP adapter for .308 Winchester<br>
.32 ACP adapter for .30-06</p>

<p>BTW, we don't even <em>own</em> any guns chambered in .30 U.S. Carbine
or .32 ACP, but we keep the adapters handy, just in case. These adapters
don't weigh much and they take
up very little space.</p>
<p>It is important to mention that the<strong> point of impact </strong>will
be different when using alternate cartridges. Do some target shooting
tests with each of your
guns. Following these tests, make note of the aiming offsets required.
One good way to keep track of this is to <strong>note the aiming offset
at 25, 50, and 100 yards on a business card and include it, along with
a small packet of silica gel,
in a
heavy duty zip lock
bag for
storing each
cartridge adapter</strong>. It is also a good
idea to carry a short length of dowel stock in the same bag, so that
you
can push
fired cases out the adapters, in the event that they get stuck. Luckily,
this doesn;'t happen very often.</p>
<p>I have found that <strong>one piece adapters</strong> (such as those
listed above) are particularly easy to use. However, the two piece
adapters (such as those used for shooting .22 Long Rifle in a .223
Remington)
are
much slower and more cumbersome to use. When I tried using one of these
with a Remington Model 7 bolt action in the field, I was always afraid
that I would drop the adapter's solid steel insert "plug" and lose
it in tall grass.
(The
steel plug is designed
to
transfer
energy
from
a center-fire rifle's firing pin to a rim-fire cartridge's priming
rim.)</p>

<p>Another very handy adapter is the now-discontinued Savage "Four-Tenner."
These are long one piece chamber adapters that allow .410 shotgun
shells to be used in a 12, 16, or 20 gauge shotguns. It is a clever
design that transfers the force from your shogun's extractor to its
own shell extractor. These Savage "Four-Tenner"
inserts can sometimes be found on eBay or on the various gun boards,
such as <a href="http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=65406754" target="_blank">GunBroker.com</a>.
(<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=110088540089&amp;s sPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&amp;refitem= 320077135026&amp;itemcount=4&amp;refwidgetloc=clos ed_view_item&amp;refwidgettype=osi_widget" target="_blank">For
example, here is 12 gauge model that is currently being auctioned on
eBay</a>. And <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=140082595234&amp;s sPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&amp;refitem= 320077135026&amp;itemcount=4&amp;refwidgetloc=clos ed_view_item&amp;refwidgettype=osi_widget" target="_blank">here
is a 20 gauge model</a>.) </p>
<p>It may take some patient Internet and gun show searching to find some
of the more obscure chamber adapters that are no longer produced. But
even the old Marbles brand adapters come up for sale often come
up for
sale
on eBay from time to time.
For example, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Shoot-22-Hornet-in-223-Cartridge-Chamber-Adapter_W0QQitemZ110088922995QQihZ001QQcategoryZ73 953QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem">there
is currently an eBay auction running for a .22 Hornet adapter for .223
Remington</a>.</p>

Re: GUN ideas
 

I've know a guy whose opinion I value that used to be in tight with the Rubie leader.....he says stay FAR away......guy is a bricks shy of a full load. Another Jim Jones personality. Similar to what I found of a guy that runs a board patterned after tree rodents.

Re: GUN ideas
 

I'm vaguely aware of what you mean Andy. :wink:

I know I'm a stupid jerk but I've learned to avoid groups of people who spend much time sitting around telling eachother how hard they all are, and doubly avoid those which center on an individual the group spends much time gawking over. I was introduced to a new term in another thread, but it's a concept I am well aware of... "sheep herder." There are certain group dynamics that are just better to keep well away from.

Re: GUN ideas
 

Figured you did Rev......that was also for those that don't know.

Funny thing about that site is they have some decent stuff in the articles on the public side of the board.....I drop by there from time to time to read them...but it sure is funny how the "openings for new members" seems to come and go.....must be a pretty transient bunch....

Re: GUN ideas
 

Actually, the decocker is the primary safety feature of the 75 BD. And, technically, I guess it's the only one since it doesn't have a trigger lock. The decocker on this specific model releases the hammer to a half-cocked position. It also has a mechanism that blocks the firing pin as it does so.

Re: GUN ideas
 

For an all around handgun, I like the Smith & Wesson 686 4" 357 Magnum.

Here's mine...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...r/LG-308_5.jpg

With the Crimson Trace Hog Hunter LG-308 laser grips...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2..._CTC_Laser.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...r/LG-308_6.jpg

Re: GUN ideas
 

The .357mag is a worthy sidearm.

Re: GUN ideas
 

Sig 229 .40/.357sig
Saiga .308

Re: GUN ideas
 

To have best accuracy and reliability - an automatic pistol really needs to be completely tuned for one caliber - I have looked at doing a combo several times over the years, kept coming back to the fact that it isn't that much more to have two complete weapons - and it's less hassle.

Plus, the more calibers you get into, the more hassle it is resetting the dies. I used to reload more calibers than a sane man needs - got rid of a good bit of them to make it simpler.

My suggestion is just go for .40 caliber

They're both really good - they have different trigger pulls, and different grip angles -

I suggest getting whichever one points best for you - and/or you shoot best with - if you are near a range where you could rent them - if not, just have to take your best shot at which dry fires the best ( not that bad a way to tell)

I've fired many, many rounds thru colt/clone guns - Glocks point so high for me that I have to consciously force the muzzle down to come onto target. So they're not for me, but I recommend them often to others.

Sigs are great guns - been years since I fired one, but IIRC the grip to bore angle is more natural than the glocks.

People's hands are different - those guns ride different in your hand. I would just go with which one points best for you and feels best, including the trigger pull.

The CZ75 and it's clones are known for being some of the best pointing guns around - while I personally favor more umph than a 9mm - if you wanna do a couple of guns - CZ75/Clone in 9mm and glock or sig in 40 would be a couple of guns that would be good additions to any battery -

Wouldn't be too concerned about a decocker or how it operated - no one gun is gonna do all or be all - don't overlook a great gun for a minor detail, JMHO.

While some people are natural pistol shots - most are not - IMHO, you'll do a lot better with something that fits your hand, feels good and points well for you than being more concerned about technical issues.

Excellent sights are a must - and various sights are different for different people - in that, while it "seems it should be otherwise" - various shooters pick up different sight shapes styles quicker and better than other styles - and no way it's the same for everybody -

At the gun shop, see which sights actually line up easiest - and index across some various items - I do better without bright dots - Don't forget, you're lining up the tops (not the dots) _grin_

By the time you sort out which gun

1 points best
2 feels best
3 best trigger pull
4 best sights ( for you)

Not necessarily in that order

Get those four things figured out and you'll be one the way -

Re: GUN ideas
 

Get the M1A and a 1911 in 45 ACP. You will NOT be sorry. Then get a good 12GA repeating shotgun. 308, 45ACP and 12GA will be found everywhere at any time and are easy to reload. Forget the rest of the c**p!

Re: GUN ideas
 

you know what is a good manual decock method, is to use two hands. you kind of put your left palm over the topstrap and then use the left thumb to ease it down. some people fear that using the right thumb it will slip and cause an AD. the two hand method is a cure for that anxiety.

Re: GUN ideas
 

that's all spot on. :ARMS1:

Re: GUN ideas
 

That's actually a pretty slick technique. Funny thing is I trust my thumb a lot more than any built in decocker and find a safety to be more useful for administrative purposes.

As far as fear goes, I have near 10,000rds through my CZ so undue fear of firearms went the way of shiney object syndrome long ago. Safety is of course very important but familiarity and understanding are safer than fear.

Re: GUN ideas
 

CZs are fantastic, really the best DA/SA design out there.

I dont fear the weapons but I sure do respect the hell out of them. I am more concerned about somebody shooting me at a range than I used to be I will tell you that. There is a club out here which has lots of matches of all kinds, idpa, ipsc, etc, and they are sticklers, which I like, and hardly ever any cherries. I always go with one of my buddies who knows all the geezers there and gets me on the best squad where I am usually the closest thing to a noob. thats the way I like my fellow shooters, all older and better than me, which means probably safer, smarter, and hence I will learn more for the limited time I got to do that stuff, and less likely to come home perforated.

Re: GUN ideas
 

No kidding about the danger of other shooters... I have yet to go to a public range that didn't have holes in the cieling or sides of the lanes! I've seen a man shoot a rifle straight up through the roof while trying to remove the magazine, if he'd been positioned just a little differently he'd be dead. My friend and I made our exit at that point.

Re: GUN ideas
 

As others have posted, I also like the idea of commonly available calibers, however I do enjoy shooting a CZ52 and a Makarov for fun. I have always perceived sidearms as useful tools to get to my long guns when the chips are down. What is key is practice - marksmanship skills are volitile. All the weapons you possess in your arsenal are worthless without practice.
Everyone has choices - a few of my own
Long guns
M1A or FAL 7.62 mm - I like my FAL better than my M1A - just my thing!
AR-style rifle 5.56 mm - I want the common caliber more than the rifle
Bolt action repeater .22 RF - When things have to be as quiet as possible
Sidearms:
.45 ACP pistol - 1911, Sig or Glock - Prefer 1911
Ruger SP101 or S&W M686 .357 Magnum
9mm pistol - Sig, Glock, CZ, or BHP - I prefer CZ, but I want the caliber
Shotguns:
Remington 870 Magnum or Mossberg equivalent 12 gauge
I hope I didn't ruffle too may feathers with my choices - just my two cents.
Take Care,
Mod1:hello:

Re: GUN ideas
 

For home defense - Taurus 7-shot .357 loaded with Federal Hydrashock .38 special

For concealed carry - Kahr PM-9

For near range rifle - Rock River AR-15 (mid size, collapsable stock, Hogue grip, bayonett)

For long range - Remington 700 in .308

I think this is the perfect combination - just my opinion.

Re: GUN ideas
 

Have your cake and eat it too....picked one up last week. It's sitting right here next to me:smile: ......